Chuck Baldwin – What About Israel?

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Is America an exceptional nation or an exemptional nation? Is Israel today the same Israel it was during Biblical times? You’re about to learn some extraordinary principles to help you understand and interpret international events.

On our show, we interview Dr. Chuck Baldwin. Dr. Baldwin is a radio broadcaster, syndicated columnist, and pastor dedicated to preserving the historic principles upon which America was founded. He also ran for president in 2008.

We talk about his recently released series on The Church and Israel.

7 Comments

  1. Wow; this is all news to me. I have always thought that Israel was our friend and ally and that Benjamin Netanyahu was a good guy. No offense Dr. Baldwin but I will need more than just your word on the subject to change my opinion. If you are preaching politics from the pulpit, does that mean you have forfeited your 501c charitable contribution tax status? I did vote for you in 2008 and voted for Darrell last year so I do believe in the Constitution Party. Just not sure about this whole Israel thing.

    • I think this is a classic example of one of those topics where the Christian-conservative-right assumes we know the correct point of view and policy because we’ve heard ourselves repeat the mantra so many times that it must be true. However, have we stopped to consider why we believe what we believe and how it lines up with scripture? I too had assumed that whatever the modern state of Israel does must be tantamount to the will of God because “they’re his people” and “God established Israel.” However, I assumed those things because that’s what all the other Christians have been saying all my lifetime.

      I actually listened to Chuck’s full series on The Church and Israel – about nine and a half hours in all. I spent a couple weeks studying through it and compiled 15 pages of notes. The teaching was primarily about just how much so the old covenant has been done away with and replaced with the new under which there is no benefit to being a Jew because all need a savior equally and that savior is Jesus Christ – all are equally saved by him or equally lost without him. There was also a lot of teaching about Israel’s rejection of their messiah and the correct application of Mathew 24 to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. 

      I tried to keep an open mind while studying through Chuck’s teaching – open to both points of view that is. I have to say that since studying that series, a whole lot of New Testament, prophesy, Pharisees, Israel and related things have been fitting into place for me and making more since as I read the gospels and ponder these matters.

      I want to add, for any who might read this, that this is not about being antisemitic, but simply about the fact that since their rejection of their messiah, and the advent of the new covenant in Christ, that there’s no special benefit to being a “Jew” or to calling your country “Israel.” I don’t think Chuck, or I, are saying that we should be anti-Israel, just that there’s no sound reason to be mindlessly pro-Israel. Rather, we should treat the modern state of Israel the same as any other government – work with them when they do right and call them out when they do wrong.

  2. PRAISE THE LORD, BROTHER CHUCK!

  3. Donna M. Medori-George

    June 4, 2017 at 10:38 am

    Thank you Pastor Chuck. You’ve given so much of yourself to pass on the truths that you’ve spent years uncovering. Thanks be to God, it’s in His Word, you have dug deep and overcome the wretched Scofield Bible Commentaries, and their ilk. You’ve published copies of great books. I encourage readers here to purchase. They’ll be a great start to a truth library. May God continue to bless you and yours. Amen

  4. I couldn’t disagree more with Chuck Baldwin’s replacement theology.

    Genesis 27:26-29 reveals the continuation of the Abrahamic blessing and cursing from Isaac to his son Jacob. Abram wasn’t a Hebrew, but Abraham is the Father of the Jewish nation. He’s their senior Patriarch. His grandson, Jacob, wrestled with God as recorded in Genesis 32:24-26 and in verse 28 God changed his name to Israel.

    Remember the story of Balaam son of Beor? Numbers 24:1 begins with “Since Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel…” Read down through verse 9 where it says: “He crouches, he lies down like a lion or a lioness – who dares to rouse him? Those who bless you will be blessed, and those who curse you will be cursed.” Balak tried his best to get Balaam to curse Israel. In verse 13 of Numbers 24 Balaam decries: “…I could not go against the Lord’s command.”

    According to the Apostle, Paul in his letter to the Romans, chapter 4:15 states “Brothers, I’m using a human illustration.[m] No one sets aside or makes additions to even a human covenant[n] that has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say “and to seeds,” as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed,[o] who is Christ. 17 And I say this: The law, which came 430 years later, does not revoke a covenant that was previously ratified by God[p] and cancel the promise.”

    I urge all your readers to take a close look at the entire chapter of Romans 11, and then consider these questions:

    Are Jews, Jews, and is Israel, Israel in the New Testament? Do They Still Have a Covenant with God?
    ABSOLUTELY. THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ON THIS.
    1) The Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4).
    2) To Israel still belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises (Rom. 9:4).
    3) The gifts and calling of God for Israel are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).
    4) There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, “the Church,” where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” If you put “the Church” where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul’s prayer be for the Church to be saved?
    5) Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God’s promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3.
    6) Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God’s promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night.
    7) The end-time prophecies, which speak of the return of the House of Jacob to their land (Israel) and its restoration, have overwhelmingly been fulfilled in Israel and the Jewish people in the past 120 years. (See, Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 37:1-14; Eze. 36; Eze. 35:1, Isa. 43:5,6; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 60:9-11; Isa. 49:22-23, etc.).
    8) The Gospel and Yeshua came “to the Jews first, then the Greek” (Rom. 2:9,10; Matt:10:5-7;15:24). There is a distinction in roles between the two. Galatians 3:28 says: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This is speaking of everyone’s standing before God as equals, because we are all sinners saved by God’s grace and the atoning work on the Cross. Nevertheless, our roles here on earth are definitely distinct; e.g., men and women, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, etc. all have distinct roles to play. Likewise, Jews and Gentiles have distinct roles to play.

    What is the Role of the Church?
    1) “On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included. 2) The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as “grafted in” (Rom. 11:17); “brought near” (Eph 2:13); “Abraham’s offspring” (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); “heirs” to Abraham’s promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and “partakers” (Rom 15:27).
    3) To the world, the Church is called to preach the Gospel to all nations and make disciples (Matt. 28:19-20); to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Mk. 12:30-31).
    4) To the Jewish people, we are called to show God’s love “for the sake of the Patriarchs” (Rom. 11:28), for without them we would not have had God’s Word or our Savior who was a Jew from Israel. We are to show God’s mercy (Rom. 11:31). We are to give our material gifts to help them (Rom. 15:27). We are to pray for them and for Israel (Ps. 122:6). We are to be watchman on the walls to protect them (Isa. 62:6,7). We are to help with the aliyah (immigration) to Israel and the building up of Zion (Isa. 60:9-11; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 49:22-23).
    5) According to Romans 11, we are two distinct groups, both grafted into the same tree, which are the covenants and promises given to Israel; grounded in the same root, the Messiah; drinking of the same sap, God’s Holy Spirit. We do not hold up the tree, but the tree us, and we are forbidden from boasting against or being arrogant to God’s covenant people the Jews (Rom. 11:17-18).

    What Happens When the Church Replaces Israel?
    1) The Church becomes arrogant and self-centred.
    2) It boasts against the Jews and Israel.
    3) It devalues the role of Israel or has no role for Israel at all.
    4) These attitudes result in anti-Semitism in word and deed.
    5) Without a place for Israel and the Jewish people today, you cannot explain the Bible prophecies, especially the very specific ones being fulfilled in Israel today.
    6) Many New Testament passages do not make sense when the Jewish people are replaced by the Church.
    7) You can lose the significance of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, for today. Many Christians boast of being a New Testament (NT) Christian or a NT Church as in the Book of Acts. However, the Bible of the early Church was not the New Testament, which did not get codified until the 4th century, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures.
    8) You can lose the Hebraic/Judaic contextualization of the New Testament, which teaches us more about Yeshua and how to become better disciples.
    9) The Church loses out on the opportunity to participate in God’s plan and prophecy for the Church, Israel and the world today.

    What Happens When the Church Relates to Israel?
    1) The Church takes its proper role in God’s redemptive plan for the world, appreciating God’s ongoing covenant relationship and love for Israel and the Jewish people.
    2) We can see the consistency of God’s redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation as an ongoing complementary process, not as disconnected snapshots.
    3) We show love and honor for God’s covenant people, not contempt.
    4) We value the Old and New Testaments as equally inspired and significant for the Church today.
    5) Bible prophecy makes sense for today and offers opportunities for involvement in God’s plan for Israel.
    6) We become better disciples of Yeshua as we are able to appreciate the Hebraic/Judaic roots that fill in the definitions, concepts, words and events in the New Testament that are otherwise obscured. Why? Many were not explained by the Jewish writers of the New Testament, because they did not feel the need to fill in all the details that were already explained in the Old Testament.

    • Gary – I appreciate your passion for this topic and your research of related scripture passages. I’ve saved your post to a folder I’m building on the topic because I’ve been doing some study on this matter and hope to do more in the future.

      I’ve listened to a seven part series (over 9 hours) of Chuck Baldwin’s teaching on this topic and I want to say that Chuck’s views are not exactly what you, or others who oppose supersessionism (aka “replacement theology”), ascribe to that theological point of view. 

      The biggest point of controversy that I’m seeing is that supersessionists are said to be claiming that the old testament promises made to Abraham and Israel have been done away with and will never be fulfilled except in and through the church in some “spiritual” sense. Some supersessionists may believe that, though it appears not all do, or perhaps what we are dealing with is another theology that lies somewhere between your views and replacement theology.

      There’s no way I can sum up 9 hours of teaching and my 15 pages of notes in a single comment – nor do I want to – but what I got from Chuck’s teaching with regard to this main point of controversy was that he believes the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, and to “the Son of David” with regard to ruling on the throne of Israel, apply to Jesus Christ and will not be realized until Christ’s return and Israel’s acknowledgment and acceptance of him as their messiah and king. I do see a pattern in Israel’s history in the Bible that sets a precedent for this.

      Throughout the old testament, whenever Israel (first as a people group under the judges and later as a nation under the kings) disobeyed God, or departed from His commandments, they fell under judgment, were overrun by their enemies and oppressed. God never delivered them, gave them victory, or reestablished them until they first repented and returned to Him and obeyed the instructions delivered to them in the law of Moses and heeded the messages delivered through the prophets. After a long cycle of this, the situation got so bad that the just judgment was for Israel to permanently lose the kingdom and be carried away into captivity in Babylon. 

      Now I’m sort of reading between the lines, paraphrasing what Chuck taught, plus adding my own insights here, but it appears that after Israel sufficiently rejected the prophets who were calling them to national repentance, they were carried into captivity in Babylon and permanently lost the kingdom (there has not been a king, or kingdom, since), but they were later allowed to return to practice their religion in Jerusalem in preparation for the coming of their messiah. In a like manner, it appears that Israel’s rejection of their messiah permanently cost them their religious practice in the temple in Jerusalem when both the temple and city were destroyed in 70AD. The teaching that I understood Chuck to be giving is that now, neither the religion or kingdom will be restored until Christ returns and the descendants of Abraham recognize and accept him.

      As for Chuck not accepting the modern state of Israel as being the continuation of old testament Israel, nor the future kingdom that is to be restored under Christ, as Chuck said in the interview, many Jewish scholars also believe that national Israel is not to be reestablished except by the messiah, the son of David, who is to rule as that kingdom’s king.

      That leaves the question of whether the current state called Israel has been established by God for Christ to soon come and rule over, or whether it was established by men who were not willing to wait for their messiah to come? Under the pattern that I referenced earlier, of deliverance and restoration only coming to Israel subsequent to their repentance from the last act committed that got them under judgment, it would be an unprecedented event for God to reestablish the state of Israel in 1948 as an act of national restoration in the absence of Israel first repenting from the rejection of their messiah which is what lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora. 

      Chuck also brought up (in the 7 part series) the issue of the promises being to the physical descendants of Abraham and the question of whether those who established the current state of Israel, or who are now leading it, are really descendants of Abraham. I really believe it’s a moot point until Christ returns to be Israel’s king, but if we are to favor the modern state of Israel on the basis of their being the descendants of Abraham, then it begs the question as to whether the modern Jews in Israel are of Abraham, or to what degree they are. 

      After 2,000 years of being dispersed all over the face of the earth (and a few hundred years in Babylon before that), it’s unlikely any modern Jew is of 100% Abrahamic DNA. Some are Jewish by religion only and share none of Abraham’s bloodline. What percent of Abrahamic bloodline does a person need to have in order for us to be blessed for blessing them? Raise the bar high enough and no one in Israel qualifies – lower the bar low enough and there are people in every nation on earth that will qualify. 

      There is a higher percentage of the population that is Jewish in Israel than anywhere else I suppose, but there are a greater number of Jews in America than in Israel, so does that mean we should bless America in order to be blessed? Modern Israel is comprised of ethnic Jews, atheists, religious Jews who are not of the Abrahamic bloodline, religious Jews who are Talmudic, religious Jews who observe the Torah (though not fully as their is no temple, temple services, nor animal sacrifices), and there are Jews who have 90% Abrahamic bloodline, 80%, 50%, 20%, 10%, 1% and none. If the promise is to the physical descendants, and if we were to weigh the current population and demographics of modern Israel, then would that state qualify as 75% Israelite by bloodline? 50%? or maybe only 25%, or . . . ? What percent does it take to qualify for “I will bless them that bless thee”? Once again, raise that bar high enough and the state of Israel won’t qualify – lower it low enough and America and other nations will qualify. 

      I’m certainly not anti-Jew, nor anti-Israel, nor is Chuck in the sense that we are to love and desire salvation through Christ for everyone. And I strongly agree with your reference to the passage about having an appreciation for Abraham and his descendants for their being the people through whom God worked out the plan of salvation and the bringing of the messiah. 

      Perhaps the best thing that can come from this is that people will be challenged to question why they believe what they believe and be forced to do some studying, pondering and praying to find out. Too often we adopt a point of view simply because that’s what the other people at church all think, so we assume it must be the Christian point of view. I’m never done learning and discovering the truth. Studying this subject has been exhilarating. I’m finding a whole lot of things in the Bible making a lot more sense now as more pieces begin to fit into place.  

      • Bob,
        I see you’ve spent 9 hours of listening to Chuck Baldwin’s teaching. Would it be more productive to spend that time in God’s Word? It really comes down to this; it doesn’t matter what Chuck, or you, or I think. What matters is what God says.
        My previous comments gave you many scripture references to look up, and it was by no means an exhaustive list. I hope you read all of them in context to make sure you understood what God was saying. The very fact that the promise to Israel that Chuck Baldwin contends with is reiterated several times in scripture makes his viewpoint unsustainable.
        You said that Israel’s rebellion cost them their religious practice in the Temple in Jerusalem when both the Temple and the city were destroyed in 70AD. When Jesus gave up His spirit on the cross (yes, He gave it up willingly) the curtain in the Temple separating the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple was split from Top to Bottom by God Himself. It was a sign that men now had direct access to God through His Son. There was no longer a need for the Temple. It had served its purpose by pointing the way to the ultimate sacrifice, the Messiah. God now wanted to help His people come to the knowledge that the temple was no longer needed.
        To make an issue of the present inhabitants of Israel being the true decedents is sadly misguided. If you read Christ’s lineage in Matthew, you will find it includes Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba, none of which are Jews. Does this mean that Jesus was not the legitimate Savior? Abraham’s seed had been watered down, according to the evidence, a long time ago making even God’s promises unattainable. I think not. From time immemorial, people have been welcomed into the family by the Jews and God Himself if they only came with faith and a pure heart to the true God.
        Scriptures state that the Jews must be back in Israel and must ask the Lord to return before He comes back. I leave that to you to search out.
        I leave you with this final thought. The tiny nation of Israel is about the size of New Jersey. It’s the only democratic nation in that area were Muslims can be Muslims, Christians can be Christians and Jews can be Jews, freely and without fear. Just try to take a Bible into Saudi Arabia and see what happens. The Jews are the only ethnic group that have remained an identifiable, national people and have not been absorbed or assimilated into other cultures after their dispersion. Why? Israel is unique. They are God’s chosen people and their very existence testifies to the reliability and accuracy of the Bible. God predicted that Israel would be scattered to the four corners of the globe if they did not obey His word. If they did not obey the Lord “then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other.” (Deuteronomy 28:64) Did you notice the “one end of the earth to the other.”? Not just in Babylon which happened during the Babylonian captivity, but what took place after 70AD. Yet, God predicted a time, during the last days, when He would bring back His people into their own land, never to be uprooted again. “For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.” (Ezekiel 36:24)
        He also predicted that the nation of Israel would be reborn in a single day (Isaiah 66:8). This happened on May 14, 1948, when Israel was once again declared a sovereign state. God even predicted that they would speak their original language, Hebrew. (Zephaniah 3:9) Did you know there were no curse or dirty words in the original Hebrew language of the Scripture? It was indeed a pure language.
        God honors His covenants, whether we do or not. Jeremiah 31:35-37 says God promises the perpetuity of Israel as a nation forever.

        This is what the Lord says:
        The one who gives the sun for light by day,
        the fixed order of moon and stars for light by night,
        Who stirs up the sea and makes the waves roar—
        the LORD of Hosts is His name.

        If this fixed order departs from My presence—
        (this is) the LORD’s declaration–
        then also Israel’s descendants will cease
        to be a nation before Me forever.

        This is what the LORD says:
        If the heavens can be measured
        and the foundations of the earth below explored,
        I will reject all of Israel’s descendants
        because of all they have done—
        (this is) the LORD’s declaration.

        If you listen to someone’s opinion or read books or commentaries, be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11) and always use the Word of God as your measuring rod to.. search the scriptures daily to find out whether these things are so.

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